[Senate Hearing 114-402]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 114-402
NOMINATION OF CAROL F. OCHOA
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON
HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
NOMINATION OF CAROL F. OCHOA TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL, U.S GENERAL
SERVICES ADMINISTRATION
__________
JUNE 17, 2015
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COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin Chairman
JOHN McCAIN, Arizona THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware
ROB PORTMAN, Ohio CLAIRE McCASKILL, Missouri
RAND PAUL, Kentucky JON TESTER, Montana
JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin
MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming HEIDI HEITKAMP, North Dakota
KELLY AYOTTE, New Hampshire CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
JONI ERNST, Iowa GARY C. PETERS, Michigan
BEN SASSE, Nebraska
Keith B. Ashdown, Staff Director
Christopher R. Hixon, Chief Counsel
Gabrielle D'Adamo Singer, Deputy Chief Counsel for Governmental Affairs
Gabrielle A. Batkin, Minority Staff Director
John P. Kilvington, Minority Deputy Staff Director
Deirdre G. Armstrong, Minority Professional Staff Member
Laura W. Kilbride, Chief Clerk
Lauren M. Corcoran, Hearing Clerk
C O N T E N T S
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Opening statements:
Page
Senator Lankford............................................. 1
Senator Heitkamp............................................. 2
Senator Ernst................................................ 7
Senator Baldwin.............................................. 8
Senator McCaskill............................................ 10
Senator Peters............................................... 12
Prepared statement:
Senator Lankford............................................. 17
Senator Heitkamp............................................. 19
WITNESSES
Wednesday, June 17, 2015
Carol F. Ochoa, to be Inspector General, U.S. General Services
Administration
Testimony.................................................... 3
Prepared statement........................................... 21
Biographical and financial information....................... 23
Letter from the Office of Government Ethics.................. 43
Responses to pre-hearing questions........................... 45
Letters of support............................................... 62
NOMINATION OF CAROL F. OCHOA
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 17, 2015
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Homeland Security
and Governmental Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:05 p.m., in
room SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. James
Lankford, presiding.
Present: Senators Lankford, Ernst, Sasse, Heitkamp,
McCaskill, Baldwin, and Peters.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LANKFORD
Senator Lankford. Good afternoon. Today we will consider
the nomination of Carol Ochoa for the position of Inspector
General (IG) of the General Services Administration (GSA).
The Offices of the Inspector General (OIG) were established
in 1978 by Congress to protect the integrity of the agencies
they serve. Inspectors General do this by rooting out and
reporting on waste, fraud, and mismanagement so that agencies
may effectively carry out their responsibilities and fulfill
their missions in service to the American people.
As frontline watchdogs for the hardworking taxpayer,
Inspectors General play a critical role in congressional
oversight. Earlier this month, we stressed the importance of
efficiently nominating and confirming competent Inspectors
General at a Committee hearing here in this same room. The
Committee and my Subcommittee take Inspector General
nominations incredibly seriously, and so we are pleased to have
a strong nominee before us.
Oversight of the General Services Administration requires
particular competencies and poses unique challenges. GSA
currently oversees $240 million in taxpayer dollars to provide
real estate, acquisition, and technology services to the
Federal Government and American people, as well as that real
property issue that has been an issue for a long time. If
confirmed by the Senate, Ms. Ochoa would be responsible for
oversight of several high-profile issues at the agency,
including strategic sourcing, Federal procurement, management
of the agency's real property portfolio, and a variety of
information technology (IT) initiatives.
As we have learned through previous IG investigations,
including the infamous 2010 GSA Las Vegas conference, oversight
of this vast administrative bureaucracy requires an Inspector
General that is intelligent, tenacious, objective, and
independent. We have found Ms. Ochoa to be exceptionally
qualified for the position in all these respects.
Ms. Ochoa is a native of Youngstown, Ohio. She received a
Bachelor of Arts degree from Miami University and a law degree
from the George Washington University School of Law. After
graduation, Ms. Ochoa clerked for Chief Judge Charles Clark on
the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. After working as a
litigation associate at Covington & Burling, Ms. Ochoa served
in the United States Attorney's Office for the District of
Columbia, as well as for James McKay's Office of Independent
Counsel.
In 2002, Ms. Ochoa joined the Department of Justice's (DOJ)
Office of the Inspector General, where she served as the
Director of the Office's Oversight and Review Division, before
her promotion to the position of Assistant Inspector General in
the Office's Oversight and Review Division. She has served as
the Assistant Inspector General since 2005.
In addition to her impressive resume, Ms. Ochoa exhibits
integrity befitting an Inspector General. Subcommittee staff
reached out to a variety of Ms. Ochoa's colleagues, who spoke
highly of her. They ascribed to Ms. Ochoa characteristics that
will serve her and Congress and the Federal taxpayer well in
her position as GSA's Inspector General: intelligence,
studiousness, impartiality, objectivity, and a skilled
management style.
Staff from both sides of the aisle had the opportunity to
interview Ms. Ochoa on an array of issues, ranging from her
past accomplishments to her future priorities at GSA were she
to be confirmed as Inspector General. She thoughtfully and
competently answered each question to the Committee's
satisfaction, including my own.
Given that the Committee has found Ms. Ochoa to be
eminently qualified to be GSA's Inspector General, I look
forward to speaking with her a bit more today on her
accomplishments and ideas of how she will improve the GSA's
Office of the Inspector General, as well as GSA at large.
I would recognize the Ranking Member, Senator Heitkamp, for
any kind of opening statement she would like to make as well.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HEITKAMP
Senator Heitkamp. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and welcome. I
can see some beaming family members behind you who, as the
Chairman was reading your list of very incredible
accomplishments, the smiles just got bigger and bigger. I know
you cannot see them from there, and this can be somewhat nerve-
racking, but just know that you have a lot of proud family
members here.
Senator Lankford. I am going to give you a moment to be
able to introduce all them in just a moment as well.
Senator Heitkamp. OK. I want to say how much I enjoyed our
discussion in the office and how grateful we are that you are
willing to undergo this process, that you are willing to step
forward. One of the issues that Senator Lankford and I deal
with quite a bit is how we are going to modernize and attract
great talent to the Federal workforce. And, obviously, your
stepping forward gives us hope for the future that other people
will follow your path, and find a career in public service. But
I want to say ditto to everything the Chairman just said.
I am going to leave that at my opening statement and ask
that the rest of it be entered into the record.\1\
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\1\ The prepared statement of Senator Heitkamp appears in the
Appendix on page 19.
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Senator Lankford. That is great.
It is the custom of this Committee to swear in all
witnesses that appear before us, so if you do not mind, we
would like to ask you to stand and raise your right hand. Do
you swear that the testimony you will give before this
Committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you, God?
Ms. Ochoa. I do.
Senator Lankford. Thank you. You may be seated.
Let the record reflect the witness answered in the
affirmative.
Ms. Ochoa, you have some guests that you brought with you.
Would you like to introduce any of those before we ask you to
be able to give your opening statement?
Ms. Ochoa. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to do
that.
I do want to thank my family members who are here today:
first of all, my husband, Jorge, who is my constant support in
all things. And I have many members here today of the large and
loving Fortine, Ochoa, and Collier families. I think I will
mention by name only the youngest ones here: my niece,
Christine Fortine, from Canfield, Ohio; nephew J. Michael
Ochoa, from McLean, Virginia; Isabelle Bettinger, from
Columbus, Ohio; and Audrey Collier, from Fairfax, Virginia.
Senator Lankford. That is great. Thank you. I will be glad
to be able to receive your opening statement at this time.
TESTIMONY OF CAROL F. OCHOA,\2\ TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL, U.S.
GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION
Ms. Ochoa. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member
Heitkamp, Members of this Committee, thank you for holding this
hearing today. I am honored to be nominated to serve as the
Inspector General at the General Services Administration. I
very much appreciate the time that Members of this Committee
and their staffs took to meet with me in advance of the
hearing. If confirmed, I look forward to continuing that
dialogue.
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\2\ The prepared statement of Ms. Ochoa appears in the Appendix on
page 21.
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In addition to my family, I am very appreciative to be
joined here as well by colleagues from the Department of
Justice Office of the Inspector General and by friends from my
days in the U.S. Attorney's Office. And I would like to
recognize the staff at the General Services Administration
Office of the Inspector General and, in particular, Deputy
Inspector General Robert Erickson, who has ably managed the
office over the past year when the agency has been without a
confirmed Inspector General.
In this time of pressing need to eliminate waste and cut
costs for the American taxpayer, the position of GSA Inspector
General is very important. GSA's extensive real property
portfolio and governmentwide procurement programs put it at the
forefront of efforts to cut costs and achieve cost avoidance
for the American taxpayer, and the GSA IG has a critical role
in ensuring that the taxpayer receives maximum value from the
GSA's operations.
I am confident that my professional experience has equipped
me well for this position. I have spent over 25 years as a
Federal prosecutor and as a manager in the Department of
Justice Office of the Inspector General.
I served as a prosecutor for over a decade in the Public
Corruption Section of the U.S. Attorney's Office here in
Washington, DC. There I was entrusted with some of the office's
most sensitive cases, including police corruption, obstruction
of justice, and complex fraud and embezzlement matters.
At the DOJ OIG, I have been privileged to head for the past
12 years the Oversight and Review Division, which is
responsible for conducting the most complex, sensitive, and
broad-ranging reviews and investigations of Department of
Justice operations and personnel, many of them classified
matters involving the Department's use of national security
authorities.
During this time I have benefited tremendously from working
closely with two highly respected Inspectors General:
Department of Justice IG Michael Horowitz and his predecessor,
Glenn Fine. Their leadership and the work of my extremely
talented colleagues has resulted in an IG's office with a
strong and well-deserved reputation for independence and
objectivity. I believe those qualities are absolutely essential
for a successful Inspector General, and if confirmed, I would
commit to ensuring that under my leadership, the GSA OIG will
be independent, objective, and as transparent as possible in
everything we do.
I have a strong memory that when I was sworn in as an
Assistant United States Attorney, the U.S. Attorney emphasized
Justice Sutherland's admonition that a prosecutor's role is not
to win cases but to serve justice, and that a prosecutor may
strike hard blows but not foul blows. Those words were
foundational in my development as a prosecutor, and that
standard of fairness and impartiality has guided me as well in
my work with the Office of the Inspector General. Simply put, I
am used to following the facts wherever they lead, closely
analyzing their fit with law and policy, and making conclusions
based solely on and drawn fairly from those findings. That is
the mindset I would bring to this job, if confirmed.
I appreciate your consideration, and I look forward to
answering any questions you may have.
Senator Lankford. Thank you. I am going to ask several
brief questions. Then I will come back around a second time and
give some others some time.
We have three questions that we ask candidates as they go
through the process. I will give you the first. Is there
anything that you are aware of in your background that might
present a conflict of interest with the duties of the office to
which you have been nominated?
Ms. Ochoa. No.
Senator Lankford. Do you know of anything, personal or
otherwise, that would in any way prevent you from fully and
honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office to
which you have been nominated?
Ms. Ochoa. No,
Senator Lankford. Do you agree without reservation to
comply with any request or summons and to appear to testify
before any duly constituted Committee of Congress if you are
confirmed?
Ms. Ochoa. I do.
Senator Lankford. Let me say one quick statement and ask
one follow-up question. One is, to your family and to you, this
is a very difficult, long process. As Senator Heitkamp had
mentioned, we want the best of the best to do this. It should
not be hard. It should be thorough. But it should not be
painful in the process, and I hope it has been a good process
to go through.
But I would say to you on the other side of this, this
Congress is very dependent on very independent, very gifted,
and tenacious Inspectors General. You are the eyes and ears of
the American taxpayer in a way that no one else can see.
Committee staff will not see it; other individuals within GSA
will not see it. Uniquely, the IG has that view, and we would
be very interested in strict independence--not political, not
loyal to any administration; loyal to the taxpayer. You know as
well as I do--you have been around Washington long enough--that
when a crisis breaks, they go typically to the Inspectors
General to say, ``Why didn't you see this in advance?'' and to
the Government Accountability Office (GAO) and say, ``Was there
a report? Did you go see these things?'' So that role is
extremely important.
So my question to you is: The tenacity and the
independence, do you feel ready to be able to take that on, as
you said, not to hit foul but to hit hard in the process, feel
that you are at a position right now to say, ``I am willing to
be able to step in and to be fair in a group, but to also make
sure the taxpayer and the individuals within the agency are
also protected?
Ms. Ochoa. I do feel ready to do that, Chairman Lankford. I
think that that is the life I have been living for the past 12
years with the OIG for DOJ, and I am committed to carrying that
same standard of independence and excellence forward to GSA.
Senator Lankford. Great. Thank you.
Let me defer to Senator Heitkamp.
Senator Heitkamp. I want to just for a moment talk a little
bit about the process that you went through, and I was, quite
honestly, shocked when you came to my office, and I said,
``Well, how long have you been at this?'' Almost 2 years, is
that correct, Ms. Ochoa?
Ms. Ochoa. Yes. The process started for me in late October
2013 when the Council for Inspectors General put my name
forward as a candidate for an Inspector General position.
Senator Heitkamp. Well, we would be very curious, having
now gone through it, and looking at your record of
accomplishments. And I know that someone with your
accomplishments also thinks about reforms and what would make
that process easier. And so I am curious about what you thought
along the way would have made it much easier, so thank goodness
you stuck with it. But I think a lot of people fall off because
they are not in a position like yours here you can keep your
day job and wait for this process and this confirmation process
to go forward. They have to eventually make a decision and move
on with their life.
And so I am curious about, given your experience, what
recommendations you would make to this body in terms of
clearing the hurdles. Maybe as Senator Lankford said, we do not
want shortcuts taken, but we do not want excessive periods of
time without real value added to the process being experienced
by our nominees. So I am curious what recommendations you would
make.
Ms. Ochoa. Thank you, Senator. As you mentioned, this
process was long for me, but I was fortunate to be in a
supportive environment, working in an IG's office with a very
strong IG who promotes getting more IGs out there.
In terms of recommendations, I can tell you that when Brian
Miller resigned from his position as GSA IG in April 2014, I
did make a very strong expression of interest in this position,
and from that time forward, the process moved along. I was
nominated in March 2015, and then this Committee moved very
quickly, which I really appreciate. To go from nomination to a
hearing in the short period of time I much appreciate.
The reason for the process taking so much longer up to that
point I am not entirely sure of. I know that the people I was
working with in the Office of Presidential Personnel were very
courteous, very professional, very much determined to find good
candidates. It seemed to me that they were a small office with
a lot of jobs to fill, and so the question may be better
directed to them. Do they need more resources?
Senator Heitkamp. I think it is curious, because you were
in such a position of authority and responsibility before you
were nominated for this position. A lot of that background
material probably had already been done. A lot of the kind of
analysis in terms of your capability to do this type of work
had already been done, and so it was a little discouraging.
We have held a number of hearings throughout both the
Committee, the Committee as a whole, and this Subcommittee on
issues involving government efficiency and government
responsibility as it relates to property management, as it
relates to kind of overall oversight of other agencies.
What complications do you see coming from DOJ where you are
looking at an agency in and of itself to an agency that really
has a broader responsibility for all of government? What kind
of complications do you see kind of moving into this new role,
both in terms of size and scope?
Ms. Ochoa. That is a good question. I do not know that I
would call them complications so much as challenges perhaps.
GSA does have a leadership role in a lot of Federal
Governmentwide initiatives, including on the Federal real
property side, as you mentioned. And the contracting authority
is massive. I mean, the amount of taxpayer dollars going
through there is a large number.
I see that part of my job will be to coordinate with other
oversight authorities so that the GSA OIG can look deeply at
what GSA is doing itself in the leadership role to implement
these initiatives, what policies it has in place, what
strategies it is using, whether it is meeting its own measures
and milestones, whether it has a contracting work up to snuff
considering the sophisticated workforce they are up against in
the private industry. And I see coordinating with entities like
GAO, which has the broader picture of how all the other Federal
agencies are contributing to the efforts to, for example,
Freeze the Footprint, dispose of excess property, and so forth.
Senator Heitkamp. I think why you see other Members here is
how significant we see the role of the Inspector General to the
overall safety and soundness and fraud watch in the U.S.
Government, and I think the President has made an excellent
choice in advancing you. We are grateful to have you, and from
my part, I just want to extend our assistance. This Committee
exists to assist the IGs, as the Chairman has said. It is there
to get input from the IGs, and we should be your partner, your
oversight partner, as you look at the functions of the agency
going forward.
And so I want you to know you always have an open door to
this Committee and certainly to us individually as you begin to
explore and look at not just reporting what you see, but maybe
thinking beyond that on what kinds of things can be done that
could prevent bad things from happening in the future and to
create greater efficiencies in government. And so thank you
again. We look forward to your work and seeing your work
product as the months go on.
Ms. Ochoa. Thank you.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ERNST
Senator Lankford. Senator Ernst.
Senator Ernst. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member.
I appreciate this opportunity very much.
Ms. Ochoa, very nice to have you here. Your qualifications
are exemplary, so I appreciate all that you have been through
as well as your family members.
There are numerous challenges, and you have mentioned
Freeze the Footprint and some of these other significant
initiatives that we have across the government. And so I am
just going to talk about very briefly just two issues that I
have seen in recent weeks, and then if you can just expound a
little bit further. But the first is that we are focusing also
on real property. You mentioned Freeze the Footprint. And one
thing that I have spent a lot of time on is taking a look at
the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) and how we work with
that organization. And there are inefficiencies everywhere, but
really what I have seen in the last number of months has been
the Department of Veterans Affairs, whether it is the health
care aspect or the real property that they own, we really need
to find a way that we can improve efficiency with the
Department of Veterans Affairs.
So I understand that the VA manages a significant portion
of its own real property inventory, but to the extent that the
GSA does work with the VA, I would want to know, if you are
confirmed, that you would be willing to work with the VA on
effectively utilizing those property holdings by the VA. Is
that something that you can manage and work with them on?
Ms. Ochoa. Yes, I can certainly work in the role of the IG
in looking at GSA's strategy to give guidance to the VA in
terms of keeping track of the inventory, deciding what
properties to keep, what properties to dispose of.
Senator Ernst. Very good. And, again, that is in your
extent of the role of the IG, but then also just last week, the
GSA Office of Inspector General did issue a report on the GSA's
surplus firearms donation program, and to be honest, before
this report, I was not aware of this particular program. I do
not think many people are. But this report raised concerns that
the program's inadequate data management and the inaccurate
inventory records, which are primarily done in a paper format
and managed by a single agency employee--huge concerns there.
This could result in the theft or loss or unauthorized use of
those firearms that are donated to this program. And I would
just like to raise that issue to you, express my sincere
concerns about this program and how it is managed. With those
two areas, with the VA, with the surplus firearm donation
program, and so many other issues out there, I would like to
ask you just what do you think your greatest challenges might
be, and how do you think you could work around those?
Ms. Ochoa. I see a number of challenges facing GSA that the
GSA IG has to keep track of. One of them is obviously real
property management, and I know you have had a recent hearing
on that. You do not need to hear from me what those problems
are. But that is an area that I see the IG needs to be very
observant about and to monitor closely and to work with GAO so
that we are not duplicating or overlapping efforts in our
respective oversight responsibilities for that area.
I also see big challenges on the procurement side. There is
a lot happening with GSA's procurement programs, and one major
issue I see is this changeover to category management, which
has the laudable goal--and GSA is part of it--has the laudable
goal of requiring vendors to provide more transactional data so
that government buyers can make more informed decisions. A
laudable goal, but both industry and government folks are
raising concerns about whether that effort has been thought
through fully at this point. They are raising concerns about
logistics of providing the information and exactly how GSA will
be able to manage and analyze the information and preserve its
security.
So that just tells me that because both industry and
government are raising issues, I need to be paying attention to
that issue.
Senator Ernst. Fantastic. I thank you very much for your
service and your continued service as well to our Nation, so
thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Lankford. Thank you. Senator Baldwin.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR BALDWIN
Senator Baldwin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ranking
Member, for holding this nomination hearing.
Ms. Ochoa, thank you for being here today and for your
willingness to serve in this incredibly important job.
As Members of Congress and particularly as Members of this
Committee, we exercise our oversight and legislative
responsibilities, and we rely very heavily on IG audits, on IG
reports, and investigations. It is critical to providing robust
oversight over the various agencies and ensuring that we are
being good stewards of the taxpayer dollars. So, again, I thank
you for being willing to serve in this very important role.
I wonder, if confirmed, if you can tell us how you would
approach your work with Congress, given our need to rely
heavily on IGs' work. What do you see as your priorities in
communicating with us as Members of both this Committee and
Members of the Senate?
Ms. Ochoa. Thank you, Senator Baldwin. I do think that is
an important topic. I am very aware of my dual reporting
obligations by statute, and I think for me my goal is to have
strong and open lines of communication with both GSA leadership
and the oversight committees who have important work in the
same area that I will be working in.
And so I expect to be keeping both GSA leadership and
Congress informed through briefings of our findings, through
responses to written inquiries from the Committee, for example,
by our public reports that I expect to be comprehensive and
accurate and fair, and, of course, through the semiannual
reporting process. And I would hope to have good lines of
communication at the staff level as well through the
Legislative Affairs Office at GSA OIG.
Senator Baldwin. Excellent. In this same vein, I have the
honor in serving on this full Committee of being the Ranking
Member of the Subcommittee on Federal Spending and Oversight
(FSO), and my goal, I know along with our Chairman, is to find
areas within Federal Government where we can find efficiencies
and cut costs. We just had a hearing last week in which we
discussed several areas where we can reduce waste, including
improper payments, where we can reduce duplication, and so I
just, again, in the same vein as my first question, ask how you
would prioritize and, based on what you know about GSA
operations, what are some of the areas that you see initially
that are ripe for cost savings?
Ms. Ochoa. Well, I have mentioned already the real property
area, which, again, you know much more about that than I do at
this point, and the procurement side of things. What I expect
to do, if confirmed, when I arrive at GSA OIG is to spend some
time talking about these very issues with senior management
there. I want to see how we are doing on the priorities that
have already been set. I want to take a measure of whether
resources have been directed as best as they can be, and I will
want to have some searching conversations about what our
priorities should be going forward.
Senator Baldwin. On real property management--and you have
already touched on this. Not surprisingly, our Committee
members are very interested in this particular area. It has
been on the GAO's high-risk list every year since 2003. And yet
the GAO found that the GSA lacks an action plan to reduce its
heavy reliance on leasing, and the GSA has not determined which
leases would be good candidates for ownership investments.
Sometimes we are tempted to ask you questions that should
be directed to the GSA proper, but you are here right now, so
as the watchdog for the agency, how do you plan to jump in and
work with the GSA to tackle these difficult problems?
Ms. Ochoa. Well, in the oversight capacity of the IG, I
would expect to learn from GSA leadership what their strategy
is right now. My sense is that there are some statutory issues
that I know this Committee is interested in, but for the GSA
IG, I would be looking at what is the plan, what are the
measuring tools that you are going to be using, what are the
controls you are going to put in place to make sure that you,
GSA, are meeting those marks.
Senator Baldwin. And, also, the GSA has struggled to
maintain the Federal Real Property Profile, the database that
captures all of the property that is under the control of
Executive Branch agencies. Again, this database has, according
to the GAO, consistently included inaccurate inventory and
outcome information. So, again, in your role as watchdog for
the agency, how do you plan to dive in there and make sure that
that database is accurate?
Ms. Ochoa. That is a good question, because obviously you
cannot manage what you do not know you have exactly. And there
have been longstanding problems with that portfolio. I have
read a number of GAO reports on the issue.
Again, from the IG's perspective, the question to GSA that
I would be asking would be: What are you doing to make sure
that your own data, GSA, is reliable? What are you doing in
terms of getting out guidance to the other Federal agencies
about what are the definitions for the criteria that go into
that data set? Because if agencies are applying different
definitions to the set of criteria, then you are going to be
comparing apples to oranges, and that does not do anyone any
good. So that would be where I would start.
Senator Baldwin. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Lankford. Senator McCaskill.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MCCASKILL
Senator McCaskill. Thank you. Welcome to the IG community.
As you know, this Committee has a tradition of working with IGs
closely. My office is one that has worked very hard making sure
that IGs have all the tools they need, not just budget but also
independence and other tools. Oh, sorry.
I know that you are not in a position, based on your
written responses, to really get into the implementation of the
System for Award Management (SAM), which is this large effort
to combine databases on contracting. I have spent more time in
this Committee room than I am willing to admit going through
all of the problems with integrated acquisition environment and
trying to make sure that this SAM was not going to be another
IT boondoggle with a bad ending. I am worried that it is, in
fact, an IT boondoggle with a bad ending.
So we will wait until you are confirmed to ask you
questions about SAM, but know that that will be something for
which you will come back after you get the job, and we will
have some penetrating questions for you, which I know that you
will be able to handle with your background as a prosecutor.
I want to spend my time today talking to you about one of
the tools that I think is essential for IGs, and that is the
power of testimonial subpoena. Now, I am going to put you in a
bad spot here, but I am so frustrated with the Department of
Justice opposition to this. You were a prosecutor for a long
time in the U.S. Attorney's Office here in the District of
Columbia, which means--I am going to show my bias now. That
means you were a real prosecutor, because you guys know what
911 calls are in the District of Columbia. The vast majority of
the U.S. Attorney's Offices have no urgency; they decide where
they are going to go when they follow investigations, but they
do not have to take everything. They pick what they take.
Now, against that backdrop, we have 72 IGs that are trying
to root out waste and fraud for hundreds and hundreds and
hundreds of billions of dollars versus the Department of
Justice, who is objecting to us giving IGs testimonial
subpoenas. And we have even gone so far as to say they can veto
one. They will not even say it is OK when we say you get a
testimonial subpoena, but the Department of Justice gets to
tell an IG, ``No, you cannot do that one,'' because they are
worried about it interfering with their investigations.
With all due respect, the Department of Justice is busy,
but they are not busy enough to handcuff the entire community
of Inspectors General in this country. And so I would like to
ask you, would you like to have the power of testimonial
subpoena as the Inspector General at GSA?
Ms. Ochoa. Yes, I would, very much. I think when we need
it. It does not come up that often, but it has come up when
Department employees leave the Department during the course of
an investigation, and then we are unable to get them to come
and speak to us, unless they come in voluntarily.
Senator McCaskill. Which they are not going to do.
Ms. Ochoa. Some have decided not to talk to us after
leaving the Department about matters that they handled while at
the Department, and that is the crux of the matter to me.
Senator McCaskill. Well, I want to enlist you to a new
assignment as an Inspector General, and that will be I want you
to help lead the lobbying effort on your former colleagues at
the Department of Justice so they understand that they are
being incredibly self-centered and irresponsible by continuing
to try to block this legislation for this important tool for
Inspectors General, and that is the main thing I wanted to get
out of you today, that you will help us in this effort to make
them understand that there is--like any test in the law, you
weigh their desire to control this process versus the benefit
that could come to the public. And I do not think it is even
close when you weigh it. So I will ask you to step up and be
helpful in that regard, and hopefully we can get this last
barrier cleared. We have gotten a lot of them cleared over the
last 5 years. We would like to get this barrier cleared for
testimonial subpoenas.
Ms. Ochoa. I appreciate that, and you will have my support
on that.
Senator McCaskill. Great. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Lankford. Just as a clarification on that, Senator
McCaskill, when the candidate is discussing this with DOJ, does
she need to use the terms ``irresponsible'' and ``self-
centered''? [Laughter.]
Is that part of it?
Senator McCaskill. I think that would be good.
Senator Lankford. OK.
Senator McCaskill. ``Selfish,'' ``irresponsible,'' ``self-
centered.'' Every investigation does not revolve around the
Department of Justice, contrary to what they think sometimes.
Senator Lankford. OK. Message delivered. [Laughter.]
Senator Peters.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PETERS
Senator Peters. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Ms.
Ochoa, for being here and for testifying. This is a very
important position. Unfortunately, we have a lot of IG
positions that have been going unfilled for too long, and it is
nice to see that we are moving forward. And I also want to
thank you for coming to my office. We had an opportunity to
have a more detailed discussion about some of the things that
you are looking to do, and I wish you well in those endeavors.
It is a very important position and we need to have you on the
job giving Congress the information that we need to know how
these departments are performing, and I look forward to working
with you.
I have a couple issues, one that I just wanted to get a
sense from you. It is my understanding the GSA offers a number
of cybersecurity solutions in purchasing programs for agencies,
and obviously cybersecurity has become a pretty big issue
lately, particularly with some of the breaches that we have
seen. It seems to me that it would be an issue ripe for you to
take a look at.
What sort of thought have you given to cybersecurity? And
what types of activities do you think you envision yourself
engaging in?
Ms. Ochoa. Thank you, Senator Peters. That is a great
question, and it is an area that I have given some thought to.
Cybersecurity is something we have to get right. Information
security in the government is important, and one thing that
strikes me as I look at that issue is that, again, it goes back
to the contracting workforce at GSA. Those are the people that
are vital to this effort, and security needs to be built in at
the acquisition stage.
So from the GSA IG position, I would want to be making sure
that GSA is doing everything it can to attract, to train, and
to retain contracting officers who can speak the language of
IT, who understand what they are working with, and who can
responsibly perform contracting responsibilities over those
types of procurement. And that, of course, also means that as
GSA IG, if confirmed, I would have to make sure that I am
growing a corps of auditors who understand IT and who can
provide meaningful audits in this area.
Senator Peters. Good. And as you perform those audits, one
thing that we talked about when I had a chance to spend some
time with you, as you know, a concern of mine is that we get IG
studies and recommendations, and yet there is not necessarily
the follow-through with the agencies, and some of the
recommendations that are made do not actually get implemented.
Do you have any idea or any suggestions for us here in
Congress how we can strengthen the ability to make sure that
when you have findings, we actually do something with those
findings and the agencies actually implement the
recommendations that you make? What would you like to see us
do--I guess is my question--to help you?
Ms. Ochoa. Thank you for that question. I do think it is
helpful when Congress requests and IGs provide information on
priority recommendations that remain unfulfilled. That in
itself brings higher visibility to those recommendations and
may prompt agencies when we are about to report to Congress on
unfulfilled recommendations to go ahead and do what they can to
try to close some out. So that is helpful.
Senator Peters. So the work of this Committee to continue
to highlighting your work is going to be necessary in order to
actually see these actions taken, the things that you are
recommending.
Ms. Ochoa. I think it is helpful. I think the onus is also
in part on the IGs themselves to follow through on the
recommendations, to keep a tickler system, to go back to the
agency and to say, ``Where are you?'' and ``Here is what we
think about where you are and what you still need to do.''
Senator Peters. And is that what you intend to do? You are
going to be aggressive in going after them?
Ms. Ochoa. I do intend to be as aggressive there as I have
been at DOJ.
Senator Peters. That leads me to actually my last question
on the DOJ, because you worked with Inspectors General Horowitz
and Fine who were there, and I know you worked very closely.
Now that you are seeking this new position, what are some of
the top lessons that you learned from working with them that
you hope to bring to your work at the GSA?
Ms. Ochoa. There are a lot of things I could talk about
with respect to both men, and they really have been invaluable
to me in thinking about this job. I will just try to pick out
one thing for each.
Senator Peters. Yes, just one thing that you are going to
be taking with you, should you get confirmed to this new
position.
Ms. Ochoa. Sure. IG Horowitz I think has been a real
example of how to fulfill the dual reporting requirement. He
really works very hard to make sure he has those open lines of
communication both with Congress and with Department
leadership, and that is an example that is important for me.
IG Fine had just an incredible laser focus on the mission
he was seeking to fulfill and was just incomparable in terms of
how he was able to focus on the work day in and day out of the
office and make sure that it was independent, accurate, and as
fair as possible.
Senator Peters. Well, good. We look forward to working with
you, Ms. Ochoa. We wish you much success, and it is a pleasure
to have an opportunity to get to know you. Let me know how we
can be helpful to you in your work.
Ms. Ochoa. Thank you.
Senator Peters. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Lankford. Thank you.
Ms. Ochoa, let me have a little more advanced conversation
on the real property issue. We had a hearing on that just
yesterday. It has been an ongoing issue. You had mentioned
before we gave you a little bit of time to get up to speed on
it. Heads up, I guess, from this Committee and the work of this
Committee. It has been a central focus for 20 years, and it is
unresolved for 20 years. So when we talk about stepping into
it, there are a lot of ideas that are floating around. What we
absolutely need is someone on the inside to say here is where
the process breaks down, and these are the areas that need to
be fixed and a set of recommendations for it. This is billions
of dollars, and it is billions of dollars not only in
maintenance and upkeep of facilities that are underutilized or
unutilized at all, but also properties that should be in the
private market that need to get off of our inventory entirely.
So it the management of facilities that currently sit there; it
is the transition out of other facilities.
I spoke to someone in one of the agencies not long ago that
said they just disposed of a property that took 20 years to
dispose of, and it cost $22 million just in the disposal. That
cannot continue to be replicated. We have to be better at this.
And so it is one of those areas--I know several of us on the
dais have talked about it. It will keep coming back to you as a
major priority of how do we streamline the process of Federal
property disposal when it is time to dispose of property.
The other issue that has come up several times and you will
continue to hear it is the distinction between a lease and buy.
When the taxpayer is evaluating which one is better, they want
to know which one is more efficient in the use of the Federal
taxpayer dollar. When agencies look at it, they are looking at
this year's budget and often lease is better for them than
buying, because if they leased it, then they can build it into
the budget, though it is going to cost a lot more over then 15
years to the taxpayer, and it is a building we are going to
hang on to for 30 years. We have to be able to hit that
balance. A long-term look rather than just a 1-year focus will
be an on going issue. Just to let you know that is going to be
an ongoing issue that will keep coming back to you until we can
find a way to get this resolved.
The Office of Personnel Management--and this is not a
hearing about them, but the recent announcement about what is
happening in cybersecurity put a tremendous number of Federal
employees and people in the Federal family at risk. It is very
important that the IGs have a sense of independence and
tenacity that, when they see critical risk areas, they have the
communication with this Committee and with Congress and with
the agency to not just write a report and assume it is done,
but to wave the red flag until the bull comes and just to keep
going on it.
We will need at times your tenacity, because there will be
moments where this is serious and this affects a lot of lives.
Dollars matter. Lives are even more important. So when that
time comes, our expectation would be that you would not turn in
a report and wash your hands of it, but that you would beat on
our door to make sure in all the clutter of all the things that
are going on, someone's attention is grabbed to say this one is
important. That report can wait until next week. This one needs
to be today.
So just know you will have that kind of report with us. Our
door will be open to you. We have tremendous respect for the IG
community and what they do for the taxpayer. But continue to
press on some of those issues so it is not a report and over
but it is an ongoing part of it.
So with that, let me ask you one other question. Speaking
with Michael Horowitz and others that you have already
mentioned, they have done a very good job of maintaining
independence and still maintaining a relationship. As you
mentioned before, that dual role. The IG's role is not a
``gotcha'' role to try to embarrass the agency. It is to help
them fix the problem and to develop ideas on what to do and, in
their busyness, to be able to resolve it.
So with that, what steps would you recommend that you take
and your office puts into place to make sure you maintain your
independence, that when it is time to do something hard, you
still have the independence to do it? So how do you put
boundaries around yourself, I guess, to be able to make sure
you maintain that independence?
Ms. Ochoa. You are really asking how it is I can stay true
to that mission, and in thinking about that, I think the best I
can tell you is that for me it is all about knowing in my core
that an IG's job is to be independent, and that if an IG
compromises that independence, skews the results of a report
for improper reasons, then that IG has utterly lost credibility
with her own staff, has lost credibility with Congress, with
the agency, and is no longer serving the purpose of the job.
And so knowing that and messaging that to the staff at the GSA
OIG is something that I take very seriously.
Senator Lankford. OK. That is great.
One other comment that I have and question, I guess, with
that is the temptation at times that when you get into the
inner workings of the machine of an agency, it is all about
developing efficiency of the agency, and that is a benefit. You
want it to be a great place to work, and you want people that
are within the agency to have good morale. They know their
voices are being heard, and they know things can get fixed
within the agency. But if it is just about making the agency
run smoother and not about protecting the taxpayer or the long-
term vision of it, then we have lost focus somewhat.
So there is no way really to be able to answer this one way
or the other, but I would just challenge you in the days ahead
to have something built in place where, if the IG's role
becomes more of us greasing the machine rather than actually
helping solve the problems or helping protect the taxpayer,
that there is a moment to be able to reset, there is a time to
be able to evaluate it. Are we spending more time making the
machine run better? Are we spending more time protecting the
taxpayer and trying to solve long-term issues like the real
property issues that remain unsolved for 20 years?
So that is just one of those balance things, I would just
encourage you in the days ahead, because it will be tough to be
able to get into it.
I think I am the final questioner. Chairman Johnson is
trying to get here as well right now. He is coming over from
another hearing. I would ask you, if you had final statements
or final questions that you would have leaving us. We have
already had your opening statement before, but if you have
final comments on other issues, we would be pleased to be able
to hear those.
Ms. Ochoa. I appreciate that. I feel that with the meetings
that I was afforded in advance of this hearing and with this
hearing today, I really do not have any other questions for
you. I really appreciate the time that has been taken, the
speed with which this process proceeded from nomination to the
hearing today, and the support that this Committee has
strenuously given to the IG community. Thank you for that.
Senator Lankford. Well, do not tell the other folks on the
nomination process that this has been fast. You need to
probably tell them it has been mercilessly slow. [Laughter.]
Because they will be very jealous of the speed that this
has come about. Our hope is that this sets a new precedent for
how we are moving nominees, that when a nominee comes,
especially as qualified as you are in the task, with the
references that you have in this task, to be able to expedite
that process and to be able to move quickly on it. So hopefully
we can get that resolved. We have a few judges that are hanging
out there and all kinds of other individuals that are in the
flow that we need to get corrected quickly and get us back to
work.
So let me say thank you to your family. This is a tough
journey for all of you as well to be able to watch this detail
as it all unfolds, and so I appreciate your support through
this journey. It is not fun. Fortunately, when the job is
actually taken on, the job is lots of fun. So there is nothing
more fun than the IG community, right? You deal with tender
emotions and people who do not like to be challenged on the
outside, but the job will actually be tougher than the
nomination process in the days ahead. But that will be a
different day.
Hold on for just a moment.
[Pause.]
The Chairman is caught up, so I am not going to keep
delaying for him on that.
Ms. Ochoa has filed responses to biographical and financial
questionnaires, answered prehearing questions submitted by the
Committee, and had her financial statements reviewed by the
Office of Government Ethics. Without objection, this
information will be made a part of the hearing record, with the
exception of the financial data, which are on file and
available for public inspection in the Committee offices.
The hearing record will remain open until 5 p.m. tomorrow,
June 18, 2015, for the submission of statements and questions
for the record.
Without any further questions, this hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 2:55 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
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