[Pages H2098-H2100]
From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Publishing Office [www.gpo.gov]




                        THE BIG, BEAUTIFUL BILL

  (Under the Speaker's announced policy of January 3, 2025, Mr. 
Grothman of Wisconsin was recognized for 30 minutes.)
  Mr. GROTHMAN. Madam Speaker, I think it is important that the Chair 
and the public know that there are always debates going on in this 
building that will determine how the big, beautiful bill is sent to 
President Trump.
  One of those debates involves the State and local tax deduction.
  Another of the debates, which hasn't been as highlighted, involves 
President Trump's proposal to reduce the marginal rate on manufacturing 
to 15 percent. President Trump is, rightly, obsessed with America being 
the world leader in manufacturing.
  Another one of the debates is what we should do to encourage 
Americans to have more children, and President Trump has proposed a 
$5,000 credit for people having children. I think that might not be 
quite right. I personally prefer a new $5,000 exemption. Nevertheless, 
there is no time in life when people are more financially strapped than 
when they have young children.
  I am strongly opposed to the so-called SALT Caucus of people who 
desperately want to have a greater deduction for State and local taxes. 
These people are, as a practical matter, looking to encourage their 
Governors, their school boards, and their county boards to raise local 
taxes.
  Last weekend, when I was home, a conservative county executive in my 
district begged me not to increase the deduction for property taxes. He 
is a conservative and does not want to have the liberals on his county 
board make the case that it would be great if all of our property taxes 
and income taxes were tax deductible so we could raise taxes.
  I am sure right now, particularly in the more liberal States--places 
like California with Governor Newsom, places like New York--the 
Governors and State legislators are waiting to see if they can increase 
the deduction for State income taxes and for local property taxes, so 
they can spend more money.
  We have to realize that if the SALT Caucus succeeds, there will be 
less money available here to lower the income tax on manufacturing, as 
President Trump tries to bring back American manufacturing jobs from 
China, Korea, and Mexico.
  We will not have the money available to do eventually what I would 
like to do, and that is have a $5,000 personal exemption to help out 
young couples who are just starting out, so they have more income at a 
time in their lives when they need it more than anybody else.
  I strongly encourage our negotiators to turn back the people who want 
a big State and local tax deduction, even though Wisconsin is a mildly 
high tax State.
  Madam Speaker, I think encouraging any more taxes anywhere in the 
country hurts us all as it slowly takes away the freedoms of people in 
America and makes America more of a country that you would not want to 
move to start new manufacturing. That is one of the things that is 
going on in this building.
  The next topic to take up--and I am kind of disappointed we didn't 
deal with it like we should have in our proposed big, beautiful bill, 
but I know President Trump's team is concerned about this. It is the 
degree to which so many of our welfare programs are designed to 
discourage people from getting married.
  We know that people who get married and have children--well, all 
types of families have successful children. I personally know many 
people who, on their own, both men and women, have done a very good job 
of raising children we would be proud of. In the long run, it is not 
fair to the next generation to discourage people from getting married 
and having children.
  Right now, there are many Federal programs. They used to be called 
food stamps, low-income housing, Medicaid, which is healthcare for the 
poor, and Pell grants. All of these programs are designed to penalize 
young couples who get married.

                              {time}  1930

  Madam Speaker, if you are a single parent, then you may be eligible 
for all of these programs. If you are married, then you may be eligible 
for none of the programs.
  I think the most generous of the group is low-income housing, or 
Section 8 vouchers, whatever. In any event, it is not unusual to look 
up a hypothetical in which if a woman marries say the father of her 
children, she will lose $25,000 to $30,000 a year.
  This is why since the Great Society in the 1960s we have gone from a 
situation in which in the fifties, 4 percent of the children in this 
country were born out of wedlock. Now we are in a position in which we 
have over 40 percent of the children in the country who are born out of 
wedlock. It did not happen by accident. It happened because the Great 
Society programs in the 1960s were designed to encourage this sort of 
behavior.

[[Page H2099]]

  Madam Speaker, you may say, who wants to discourage people who are 
married from having children?
  In fact, Karl Marx, of course, was very opposed to the traditional 
family. We have known since I have been here.
  Black Lives Matter made it clear that they were opposed to what they 
referred to as ``the Western-prescribed nuclear family.'' Of course, 
even after Black Lives Matter came out for that, it did not prevent 
many of our Members, particularly on the Democrat side of the aisle, 
from standing with Black Lives Matter, a group opposed to the nuclear 
family.
  We know that many of the feminists in the sixties, I think Kate 
Millett, who was described as the mother of women's studies classes, 
which are all over our universities, were outright opposed to the 
nuclear family.
  It is disappointing they are not doing more in this budget to address 
that problem, to stop encouraging young people not to be married. We 
all by now have run into young couples who may even want to be married, 
but they won't get married because they lose $20,000 or $25,000 a year.
  Indeed, in this program, we are expanding the Pell Grant program. It 
is a program that was one of these things that has a marriage penalty 
associated with it.
  We are expanding the low-income housing tax credits. While some of 
those credits do not come with a marriage penalty, particularly when 
coupled up with State programs that do have a marriage penalty, it is 
another program we are expanding and it is going in the wrong 
direction.
  In any event, I encourage President Trump to do what is already going 
on behind the scenes, and that is to work towards, perhaps in our next 
reconciliation bill, a program to stop the hatred of the traditional 
family that is the marker of the Democratic Party today.
  Again, I emphasize we have to look at every one of these programs: 
the earned income tax program, the Pell Grant program, the low-income 
housing program, and the Section 8 program. In general, all of the 
housing authorities have this hostility.
  If America is ever going to truly become a great society again, then 
we have to work our way back up to where we were in the sixties and the 
fifties where we had 4 percent or 5 percent of the children born out of 
wedlock.
  By the way, Madam Speaker, if you read historic experts on this 
topic, and I am talking about people like George Gilder, who is a very 
bright guy, a lot of times the person who is penalized the most when 
you set up a society without couples having children is, in fact, the 
man in the society who has no purpose in life.
  As an Indian immigrant in my district told me: In America they have 
the woman marry the government.
  Of course, I think society is better off if we have the woman marry 
the father of the children, not the government, like so many members of 
this conference want to do.
  The next thing I want to look at, which we are going to be doing in 
the next few days, is we have a proposed reconciliation bill in front 
of us. I was under the impression that this bill would be an 
opportunity to decrease the amount of government programs, decrease the 
degree to which we have government programs controlling or directing 
Americans' lives.
  One of those programs that I really don't like the more I talk to 
experts on the topic is something called low-income tax credits.
  These low-income tax credits are given to property developers that 
are equal to 10 percent of the value of what they spend on new 
apartments for 9 years in a row. Now, there is a time value of money, 
but even given the time value of money, it means that the government is 
paying for 70 percent of some people's projects.
  There are some requirements as to whom they rent these to, but the 
requirements are not stringent. Some people point out that they can 
almost take people at random in the street, and that would be enough to 
fill their housing units. It really doesn't do a lot to help the so-
called low-income people.
  It does help, however, because the government is giving so much 
money, it does encourage developers to spend far more than they would 
otherwise on their projects.
  Why not make Cadillac projects if the government is going to spend or 
pay for 70 percent of those projects?
  Furthermore, as we spend more on the projects, it is going to turn 
around and result in greater depreciation expense for the wealthiest 
banks in the country who frequently wind up buying the credits.
  For something that should be a relatively simple transaction, once 
the States gets ahold of it, Madam Speaker, you can wind up with 
regulations of hundreds of pages that have to be negotiated when you 
begin running the projects, which obviously means a lot more money for 
the lawyers and much more difficulty for the politicians to understand 
exactly what is going on.
  You would think, Madam Speaker, that of all the government programs 
this would be the easiest to get rid of because we are supposed to be 
broke. In fact, under our big, beautiful bill, and I know President 
Trump wants the most beautiful bill he can get on his desk, in 
this bill we are, in fact, expanding the number of tax credits, which 
is to say expanding the amount of money that the property developers on 
these projects are going to make.

  We are increasing the amount of tax credits, and I am told a very 
high number will be going to the biggest five banks in the United 
States, tax credits the banks get.
  Furthermore, because there are only so many new rental housing units 
we need, it expands, or they wind up crowding out the what I call 
legitimate developers and the legitimate users of low-income housing 
tax credits.
  I would hope, as we put together, hopefully, the final version of the 
big, beautiful bill sometime in the next couple of weeks, we look at 
this. It is not something that costs nothing. It is currently costing 
us even under current law about $13.8 billion a year in tax credits 
which are going to these well-connected developers.
  I think one thing that will also tell us that they are well-connected 
is it is up to States to distribute which property developers get the 
credits.
  What do you think is going to happen?
  It is going to be the same people who know the same bureaucrats, who 
are connected to the same politicians, who are going to get these 
credits again and again and again. Again, on the face of it, the idea 
that in the future in this country the people who build the apartments 
are going to be determined by State bureaucracies is just an invitation 
for trouble.
  The fact that we are paying 70 percent, therefore, results in a 
situation given--some areas in California, in particular--we may be 
paying more than $95,000 a unit.
  Does that make any sense at all if our goal is to create lots of new 
housing units for the so-called poor or working poor?
  No. You would never do that, Madam Speaker, except for that is the 
way the property developers make more money.
  In any event, I encourage our leadership team as they are looking for 
more money to seal the deal on this project, I don't think they have 
their 217 or 216 votes yet to grab that $13.5 billion.
  Another thing I will point out, these credits have been around since 
the late 1980s, and people might wonder where they came from. I think 
they probably came from developers who found a way to snooker the poor 
U.S. Congressmen in the late eighties. At the time Congress felt 
something had to be done because we had just gotten done with the 
apparently increasing the depreciation schedules on new residential 
real estate. So in the early eighties, Madam Speaker, you could 
depreciate an apartment building in 15 years. When they changed it to 
27\1/2\ years, it greatly reduced the number of new apartments that 
people were building and, therefore, it was easier to sell to Congress 
that one way to get more apartments online is to have these 
ridiculously overgenerous credits.
  I don't know if I am going to have much of an impact. One of my goals 
is I would like to have the credits renamed. Instead of the low-income 
housing tax credits, name them the big banks, big law firms, and 
especially well-connected developer tax credits, because I think that 
would more accurately describe the people who benefit from these 
credits.
  In any event, these are some of the issues that I think are going to 
be debated in the next few days.

[[Page H2100]]

  I hope the press does a good job of covering what low-income housing 
tax credits really are.
  I hope the press does a good job of setting before the American 
public, and particularly the Republican volunteers who did so much to 
get us here, laying out the differences between the tax cuts based on 
how high the property or sales taxes are, how high the local property 
taxes or State sales and income taxes are.
  We will see how our base feels about who we should reward or what 
type of behavior we should encourage through the tax code.
  Should we encourage people to have more children?
  Should we encourage people to work harder?
  Should we encourage businesses to make more manufacturing jobs?
  Or should we encourage local governments to raise taxes?
  Finally, in the future as we determine how we are going to build new 
apartments, should we encourage the builders of the apartments to go 
through the government accepting lavish tax credits?
  Or should we do it the way we always have in America, and that is let 
the free market win out?
  The idea that we cannot build apartment buildings is, on its face, 
preposterous. I know everywhere right now, be it single family or 
multifamily, the costs are way too high.
  I would hope that the Speaker would maybe put together a committee or 
a subcommittee to see what we can do to lower those costs. I am told it 
is possible to lower the costs, and the answer is not paying developers 
70 percent of the cost of their project.

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